Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Shallan navigated the treacherous waters of her introduction to Alethi politics. This week, we’ll return to that happiest of times and places, Shallan’s childhood on the Davar estate. Oh, wait…
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 39: Heterochromatic
Point of View: Young Shallan
Setting: The Davar Estate, Jah Keved, Four Years Ago
Symbology: Inverse Pattern, Chach, Nalan
IN WHICH gloom prevails, as Father pretends wealth he doesn’t have; he has beaten a maid nearly to death in anger at Helaran’s letter; he is betrothed, but no one can pretend excitement; he gives fine gifts (which he can’t afford) to his children to mark the occasion; he still never shouts at Shallan; feasting is interrupted by a man with heterochromatic eyes, bearing rumors of murder; while Father and the man talk, Shallan and her brothers huddle by fireplace; Shallan blanks out; she makes up stories about Father’s conversation, with puns hidden to distract her brothers – and actually makes them laugh; they get in trouble for laughing, but Balat actually has a good answer and Father leaves them alone for a while; the visitor makes a request for information from everyone every lighteyes in the room; courage fails; Father roars; and everyone runs away.
Quote of the Week:
Balat glanced over his shoulder, toward the high table. “I wish I could hear what was being said,” he whispered. “Maybe they’ll drag him away. That would be fitting, for what he’s done.”
“He didn’t kill Mother,” Shallan said softly.
“Oh?” Balat snorted. “Then what did happen?”
“I…”
She didn’t know. She couldn’t think. Not of that time, that day. Had Father actually done it? She felt cold again, despite the fire’s warmth.
Oh, Shallan, how well you hide from yourself. You know he didn’t do it, but at the same time, you will not remember the truth, and so you wonder if maybe he did. Oh, Shallan.
Commentary: I have always assumed, based on various hints here and there, that there was once a time when the Davar’s were, if not a perfect family, at least a reasonably happy one. If so, those days are gone.
In fact, they’re a complete mess now. Father’s temper and self-control have deteriorated to the point that he’s brutally beating servants over a letter from Helaran. He’s throwing parties and pretending to be wealthy, but he’s actually desperate for money. His pretense is good enough to deceive most people, even to the point that another Brightlord has been willing to betroth his youngest daughter to Davar (though I certainly hope he had no idea what he was sending her into; if he had any clue, he deserves a terrible fate!). He is doing everything he can to gain prestige and influence, but his home is a disaster.
What I don’t know, and it gnaws at me, is whether he was already under Odium’s influence at this point. I suspect he is, based on previous flashbacks, but I don’t know. The other question, related, is whether the stress of the circumstances surrounding the death of his wife opened him to that influence, or whether it was Odium’s influence that magnified the stress to the point of madness. I suspect the former, but again, I don’t know. And it probably doesn’t matter, but I think about these things.
Something else I wonder about:
“You’ve met my daughter, of course,” Father said, gesturing to Shallan as his guests were seated. “The jewel of House Davar, our pride above all others.”
Why is Shallan “our pride above all others”? I don’t get the impression, from other cultural references, that a lone daughter is generally such a prized member of a Veden family. Am I missing something? Is this a unique aspect of Lin and Shallan Davar? Ideas, anyone? I don’t quite get it.
In any case, Shallan is trying her best to cheer her brothers up in spite of it all – as long as she doesn’t have to remember the truth. While on the one hand I can’t fault her for not actually confronting her father with the problems, it frustrates me to read passages like this:
She did not want to contradict him. He had been good to her. He was always good to her. Yet, shouldn’t someone do something?
Helaran might have. He’d left them.It’s growing worse and worse. Someone needs to do something, say something, to change Father. He shouldn’t be doing the things that he did, growing drunk, beating the darkeyes…
I suppose I shouldn’t blame such a young girl for not taking the lead on this, when her older brothers are incapable of doing anything either, but at the same time, I’m confident that she’s the only one who could possibly have a positive influence on him at this stage. Even Helaran, for all her reliance on his goodness and courage, only has the power to make things worse: not knowing the truth, he actively and viciously blames their father for their mother’s murder. I’m convinced that the pressure of blame from his beloved son, combined with his own determination to protect his equally-beloved daughter from the consequences of the truth, making him unable to answer the accusations, is largely responsible for Lord Davar’s mental breakdown. If Shallan could tell the truth even within her own family… but at this point, they wouldn’t believe her unless she produced the Shardblade, of course. Oh, what a mess. I feel sorry for everybody, now.
Well. Chapter-title-character-guy is not a particularly nice person, but I suppose I can’t blame him for that. Once again proving that genetics on Roshar is weird, Highprince Valam’s bastard son Redin has one light eye (“intense blue”) and one dark eye (“dark brown”). Not that heterochromatic eyes are unheard of on Earth, but it seems more widely known on Roshar, as well as being a handy and absolute evidence of parentage.
Redin is here, as investigator and possibly executioner, to search for evidence that Lin Davar killed his wife, presumably because Helaran said so and then disappeared. Fortunately for the truth, no one here is brave enough to stand up and give that evidence, and the two people in the room who know… aren’t telling. I have to wonder what would happen if the truth had come out (besides destroying the story Brandon is telling, of course). Would Shallan have been pardoned? Would they have tried to make her give up her Shardblade? Would they, too, have tried to kill her? What would have been the reaction? Alas, we’ll never know.
Just a couple of other things I want to point out on the way by:
They’d received a brief letter from Helaran six months back, along with a book by the famous Jasnah Kholin for Shallan to read.
And so begins a new phase of her education! So we can at least thank Helaran for that much.
There’s also an interesting note that Shallan has begun to study propriety – with some difficulty, since her tutors kept leaving – but that her father wasn’t big on the niceties of Vorin social etiquette. It demonstrates the fact that, although he is of fairly high rank, he is still very much a rural brightlord without any semblance of courtly manners.
Stormwatch: This scene takes place four years ago; Shallan is thirteen and a half years old. This is two years after the first flashback, “Red Carpet Once White.”
Sprenspotting: Flamespren are fairly common occurrences, so the scene with the boys watching the flamespren is significant only in its accompanying statement that “The three brothers never talked anymore.”
There is another spren soon to come in this tableau, which made its first appearance back in the “Rysn” Interlude: shamespren. These collect in their little group by the fire, when no one can bring himself to speak against Father in the matter of the death of his wife. I’m really, really curious as to why shamespren have such a lovely appearance, though: “A whirling group of translucent flower petals stirred among them, fading into view.” Also? Another case of a deeply inconvenient spren! And what do they look like in the Cognitive realm – full-blown rosebushes?
Heraldic Symbolism: Our Heralds for this flashback are Chach and Nalan. I’m waffling on Chach’s meaning: probably the “obedient” aspect, although in some ways Shallan is also serving as guard for her brothers, and her father is a guard for her. Dustbringers seems more appropriate to the scenario, though. As for Nalan, I’m betting Redin is his representative as Judge, as well as portraying the attributes of Just and Confident. However, there have been hinted links between the Skybreakers and Helaran, as well as Nalan’s other appearances to developing Surgebinders. All worth consideration.
Just Sayin’: There are a couple of curious little remarks to note: “To the void with all of you” would seem to be the equivalent of “to hell with you.” Which is… pretty much a direct parallel. Likewise, when Shallan has been cracking bad puns, her brother laughs and calls her “You little Voidbringer,” which is obviously like unto “you little devil.” Fun little notes.
Another socially significant hint is dropped in this chapter, though, which is easy to miss. Shallan notes that Father has started calling her brother “Nan Balat, as if he were the oldest.” A little later, she specifically calls him “Tet Balat,” as they are speaking of Helaran and his disappearances. I find it slightly bizarre to consider a culture where the order of birth – and inheritance – matters so much that the associated titles are actually used between family members.
If you hadn’t caught it yet, “Nan” is the title for the oldest son, the person nominally in “second place” in the family, with the Lord obviously in first. The second son is “Tet,” the third is “Asha,” and the fourth is “Van.” I find this mildly confusing, because while Nan is directly associated with the number 2, where do Tet, Asha, and Van come from? The names associated with those hierarchical numbers are: 3, Chach; 4, Vev; and 5, Palah. If anything, Tet is closest to Tanat (9), Asha to Shash (6), and Van to Vev (4). Weird.
There. Go talk about it. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when Shallan has a chance to get to know the highprince in whose power she’s placed herself, and his mistress too. Witty badinage alert!
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She would like to take this opportunity to remind you all to do your reading for the Hugo voting (if you’re a WorldCon member), and encourage you all to become WorldCon members (and do the reading) if you aren’t. Team Sanderson intends to be present in force, and if you come too, please look for Wetlander at Registration. She’d love to meet you in person.
Re Lin’s comment that Shallan is “[t]he jewel of House Davar, our pride above all others”: Alice, I took this to mean that Lin is disgusted and ashamed of all his sons. Shallan is the only “good thing” about House Davar. At the point in time when Lin made the statement, I think Lin wished that he could act as if his sons were never born.
I wonder if present Shallan could go back in time and tell the 13 1/2 year old Shallan that in 4 years she would have been the ward of Jasnah what 13 1/2 year old Shallan’s reaction would have been. Speechless would probably be an understatement.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
aka the musespren
Regarding Lin’s comment about Shallan…
I took it to mean Lin was setting the stage to marry her into a well-to-do family in the future. The visiting family wasn’t a target as it turned out, because they didn’t have a son IIRC (only the daughter Balat was flirting with), but it could be beneficial to advertise your awesome daughter’s future availability to the lighteyed family from a couple of hollers over. They might spread the word even further afield. Or it could be as AndrewHB @1 suggested. That’s pretty sad, but in-character.
> What I don’t know, and it gnaws at me, is whether he was already under Odium’s influence at this point.
So, for those of us who either don’t read as closely, or who can’t find useful information in the disparate WoB’s that are out there.. huh?
Father is under the influence of Odium? (and not, say, just going nuts from the stress of what happened?) Is that explained in the text someplace? Is that said by Brandon someplace? Do we know what, exactly, Odium’s influence does to you (how/why it seeps in, what the effect is, and so on)? Am I missing something?
The whole Cosmere thing is to me simultaneously awesome (because I love the idea of the wider universe) and frustrating (because it’s never “officially” explained anywhere, and you need to parse through all of these diverse Q&A sessions to get information)
I was hoping to get to a prefix title discussion. Right now it seems like said titles are unique to Veden houses, and possibly even to house Davar.
In any case neither Adolin or Renarin nor have any of the other Alethi nobles Adolin is friendly with ever been referred to by birth number titles.
It sounds like the Veden may practice a form of primogeniture since Shallan specifically thinks to herself that she is one rank lower than her father in the Light eyes caste system.
So one son inherits the house and lands, another becomes career military, a third traditionally goes to the Ardentia and what any left overs become subservient to the eldest or else get the shaft?
@3 stmccull
I think the Odium influence thing is just speculation. As for the rest of the Cosmere stuff I doubt you really need to understand it to enjoy SA. Basically Odium is an evil deity who killed at least one of the good deities that watched over everyone on Roshar.
Odium seems like he will be the main villain for SA. He is quite literally hate personified and incapable of feeling much else or acting in a way that runs counter to his nature. If someone who ostensibly used to be relatively stable has become violent and hateful in a world with such a being, it stands to reason he may have something to do with it.
On a side note The Coppermind is a great resource for any Cosmere related questions you may have. Or for just sucking away some of your spare time.
@@.-@: If so than the family is not following it very well. Since none of the boys seem to be training for different jobs. Only the first had military training, and he might have gotten that after leaving home.
The only thing I can think of IRL is heraldry. The arms of the children are marked in a set way depending up birth order. http://www.rarebooks.nd.edu/digital/heraldry/cadency.html
I think Ways @2 is spot on for why Shallan’s dad is talking about her like that. Because he’s not going public with her being a Shardblade holder.
The “lighteye” to give witness reminds me of the past in bad ways. Serfs and slaves. If a crime happened and they were the only witnesses, a noble couldn’t really be tried. :-(
@3 Stmccull
Interview: Mar 13th, 2014
WOR-Omaha, NE
Macen
Was Shallan’s father influenced at all by Odium?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes.
It’s another of those pesky Words of Brandon things. I believe that is all we have and as Wetlandernw as stated we do not know when this influence started or how it was manifested.
Re: whether Davars have ever been a happy family, it is, IMHO, significant that Shallan had been sufficiently “cracked” at an early age for Pattern to find purchase and for the bond to flourish very quickly. Does it mean that Lady Davar had been abusive from the start towards the one child she would have been expected to associate with most closely? Perhaps.
Also, once she finally remembered her mother’s death (or was it when she had to kill her father?), Shallan also recollected a period of build-up towards the attempt on her life, with herself trying to hide from and avoid her mother.
It is, of course, really odd that Helaran and even Balat managed to completely miss all the arguments that culminated in the tragedy. Maybe firmly closing one’s eyes to inconvenient facts was not not unique to Shallan (though extreme in her case due to extreme circumstances) but a family trait?
Re: “jewel” – given that women do have important professional functions to fulfill in Vorin societies, their status would be higher than iRL historically, and an only daughter had always been valuable for building alliances and such. Though, did Lin really intend to marry Shallan off, knowing that she was capable of whipping out a shardblade if sufficiently provoked? Or give that shardblade away for free. Hm…
Re: numbering of offspring, didn’t Republican Romans have a charming tradition of not giving their daughters proper first names? Calling them by family name + number instead? Or sometimes just adding adjectives “big/small”, “elder/younger”?
@7: The name Octavia means “eight daughter.” So there was some of that, but it wasn’t limited to girls. some of the boys got numbers as names too.
Thanks, everyone. I do know about coppermind.net, but you can’t really search it for “Did Odium influence Shallan’s father”.
There’s not a giant repository of Brandon’s answers to these sorts of things, are there? I wish there was, but I have no idea how someone would be able to manage the size and scope of it all.
@9 Theoryland’s interview database collects WoBs, there’s also http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7267-words-of-brandon-compiled-x-2/.
@8:
No, it means a daughter of Octavian family. A son would have been called “first name” Octavius, while a daughter could only be simplyOctavia. Ditto Julia, etc. If more than one, they would have been Julia prima/secunda, etc. or Julia Major/Minor, etc.
It is true that Republican Romans also used relatively few male first names and each family used only a handful which were traditional to them. And some of those names were derived from numbers (Tertius, Sextus, Septimus, etc). Nevertheless men did have proper first names andwomen didn’t…
I suspect there was always an aspect of doting to Lin’s behavior with Shallan (the lone daughter and baby of the family) – not that I have anything to base this on, except the feeling that Lin’s twisted protectiveness started out from a better position initially. Plus, for Shallan’s brothers we know Lin’s problem was he always found them lacking compared to Helaran (who turned on him) – Shallan as his only daughter doesn’t have that comparison.
Redin…I wonder what is in store for him. Considering his later appearance in Taravangian’s Interlude, we get a nice little snippet into his character. Proto-Radiant? Being a heterochromatic bastard would probably cause more than enough cracks…
Re-reading TWoK recently, I’ve noticed that a lot of the time when Nalan shows up in the chapter artwork, it mostly seems to indicate just “bad stuff happens here.”
Birth order being so emphasized is clearly a Veden thing and not an Alethi thing — and is another interesting link (along with red hair) between the Vedens and the Horneaters.
It’s unfortunate that, even with Shallan’s flashback book, we know hardly anything about Helaran, even though he set major events in motion for two of our main heroes’ backstories. Pretty much everything WoR does say about him is suspect, since it’s coming from the PoV of Shallan and she pretty much idolizes him.
It still doesn’t make much sense to me that, before her conflicts with her enigmatic mother, Shallan was already “broken” enough for Pattern to come to her. I wonder if some spren bond to someone who is going to be “broken” but isn’t yet? Or if something else was going on there.
AndrewHB & Ways – Hmm. Either of those are better than anything I’ve come up with on Shallan’s jewel-ness. Either one is also rather sad in its own way – one implying his disgust with all his sons, and the other implying the advertising of his daughter for sale, as it were – but at least they make sense with the character.
stmccull @3 – I should have found and quoted the WoB on Odium influencing Lin Davar. If someone doesn’t beat me to it, I’ll go find it.
And I have to say, the whole Cosmere thing is both the most awesome and the most frustrating thing about getting involved in the online discussions of fandom. Awesome, because you learn things you’d probably never have picked up otherwise (or not for years). Frustrating, because every time you turn around, you’re getting blindsided by something else you didn’t know would matter, or hadn’t seen before, but changes everything about the way you look at something. I feel your pain. FWIW, Brandon has said that he’s keeping it low-key and mostly Easter-egg-ish at this stage, because he wants people to be able to simply enjoy the books without feeling like they’re missing huge chunks from not having read everything else… but if you get involved in this kind of discussion, all that goes out the window!
wcarter @@.-@ – I do think the title issue is a Veden thing, though I couldn’t prove it one way or the other. But you certainly don’t see it in the Alethi culture, so there’s that. The light-eyes caste system is kind of complicated, but there’s a whole write-up on it in the Coppermind, about which ranks are inherited directly, and in what cases the children are a level lower than their parents and all that. I think that’s common across Vorinism, but I could be wrong. It’s happened before. ;)
Braid_Tug @5 – lighteyes… yup. I thought much the same thing, but didn’t really have anything to say about it except that it begs to be noted.
sanderfan @6 – Thank you! Yes, that’s all we have, to the best of my knowledge.
Isilel @7 – Hi, there!! ::waves enthusiastically::
I’m never quite sure whether I have good reasons for thinking the Davars were once happy, or if I imagined that. But you’re right: somewhere in there is referenced to shouted arguments between Mother and Father, and at least an implication that it was because of Shallan’s developing Surgebinding. The only thing I can even imagine to excuse Helaran and Balat is if Shallan only heard it through Pattern’s eavesdropping. I like the idea that the deliberate amnesia is a family trait.
Good point about the value of daughters, and especially an only daughter. Lin certainly never forgot about that Shardblade, though, so now I’m wondering what his intent might have been for the long term.
rhandric @10 – Thank you! I use the theoryland database a LOT, but finding things in it is sometimes a challenge.
Also: I’m probably going to disappear now for the rest of the day. Lots of baking to do, and my daughter’s school concert tonight, so… yeah, I’m not avoiding y’all, I just won’t be home much for a while. On the bright side, lots of virtual goodies for the Storm Cellar! ;)
“jewel” or “gem?”
Because Shallan is the user of Stormlight in the Davar family.
The login button is quite evasive. And I lose the page when I do login. The old tor.com is infinitely superior to this disappointment.
Since Veden people have Horneater blood, perhaps the prefix titles are derived from the Unkalaki practice of determining a son’s occupation by birth order. (I don’t think the actual prefixes or occupations are the same in both cultures, but some similarities may still exist.)
It’s also interesting that central heterochromia, as opposed to complete heterochromia, does not seem to exist on Roshar. I have a somewhat silly reason for being invested in the topic: I have the former, with one lighteyed and one darkeyed parent, and I’ve sometimes wondered what I would be considered if I were from a Vorin culture.
@16 Paliah
For that matter I wonder what they would think about hazel eyes? Particularly the ringed variety that is close to your aforementioned central heterochromia (I’m guessing speckled hazel eyes would just be considered dark).
I do seem to remember at least one character with dark green eyes who was considered a dark eyes, so maybe it’s the shade of the color more than the color itself that determines whether or not a child has won or lost Vorinism’s genetic lottery for nobility vs nobody.
@16 & 17: I’m wondering if babies eyes change color on Rohar like they do on Earth. My son was born with pale blue eyes, they changed to my dark brown when he was 3 months. Now I’m playing the waiting game with my daughter.
Shallan wanted to say “I did”. Her blackouts happen before she hits 2 syllables. Kid is MESSED UP.
One wonders if at this point Davar became so Odium-analogue of a Radiant. He certainly broke…
As to shamespren… I can’t help thinking of those scenes in anime where people are standing around being dramatic and around them (usually) cherry blossom petals swirl. Wouldn’t be the first anime imagery in Brandon’s work. We’re reading a book where the magical weapon of choice are Big Flamespren Swords, after all.
In general
I’m not having as much difficulty with the new, improved Tor website a week after deployment. Yes, it is a tad slower than before, and yes, there is a learning curve. But there are some interesting new features. Having said that, I bookmarked my two fav rereads in my primary browser (Firefox) many moons ago and I’m not usually trying to find something else on Tor’s homepage, which could be a bit frustrating even with the old site.
Re: Shallan’s jewelness
Isilel @7 brings up a good point about Lin Davar giving away a valuable shardblade if/when he marries off Shallan (which surely must happen sooner or later anyway). I’ll posit there are two factors mitigating any greedy impulses he may have wrt. keeping the shardblade within his immediate family. First, Brightlord Davar has to be very frightened of what Shallan is already or what he suspects she will become. He knows all too well that the blade was not given to Shallan, nor did she win it in battle, and he must suspect what is really happening. His Ghostblood connections could easily have provided info to affirm his suspicions. Second, his plans to get House Davar out of its financial hole, which could certainly include the possibility of forging a bond with a more affluent Veden house, may trump the intrinsic value of the shardblade itself by whatever logic he is using. If he does indeed grok that Shallan is on the path to KR-dom and can’t hand over her blade to someone else, then marrying her off could be a tidy solution to several problems.
The foregoing is all a WAG, but I’m running with it. Feel free to punch holes.
@@@@@20 Ways
If Lin Davar is worried about giving away a shardblade, it maybe that the joke is on him.
Shallan has already started blocking the whole thing with her mother. The bond with Pattern is stretched to almost breaking. It just could be that she would not be able to call up Pattern as a blade anymore at this point.
@18
So in a way babies are royalty that outrank their peasant parents? Seems appropriate considering how much you have to wait on them hand and foot…
All kidding aside, that is an interesting question. Somebody should really ask Brandon the next time he’s at a signing whether babies are typically born with blue eyes on Roshar or if they’re just whatever color and shade they’re destined to end up with from day one (Radiants obviously excepted).
On the subject of real world eyeshades vs Roshar eyeshades, I have often wondered about that. What do “Lighteyes” vs “darkeyes” really look like? Kaladin on the front of WoR just looks like a guy with brown eyes. But, I also recall reading in various bridgemen scenes some descriptions of darkeyed people with green, or IIRC, even violet eyes. I am having a hard time imaging where the dividing line would be in a color like green or blue, between “dark” and “light.” What if you have some middle shade? That, and the fact that several people (Jasnah and Navani I believe) are described as having violet eyes, a color that clearly does not exist on Earth, makes me wonder if there is intentionally something fantastical to what “lighteyes” really look like. I have always wanted to ask Brandon the question, “If I happened to meet…say, Dalinar Kholin, who I’ve been told is a lighteyes with blue eyes” would I think to myself “hmm, that man has blue eyes,” or would I think “wow, that man’s eyes are WEIRD”, meaning there is something glowy, or some other quality about them that is not like eyes we see in the real world. Maybe we’re all of us Earthlings just darkeyed.
Re: Marrying off a daughter with a Shardblade. I wonder if Lin Davar, too, just tries his hardest to forget about that. After a while, maybe he mostly forgets that Shallan was the one who killed her mother, that he in fact didn’t do it…except that he can’t bring himself to physically hurt Shallan or yell at Shallan like he can his other children, and he knows he shouldn’t try to think to hard about why that is…
The names designating the birth order of sons (presumably, inheritance order) is taken from the Herald names with one exception. Nan is Nalan, Tet is Talanelet, Asha is Ishi, and Van is a mystery (to me).
@24 STBLST
The problem with that is there are numbers associated with Heraldic abbreviations already listed in the back of the books.
Nan is actually 2. not 1. if Tet is for Tanet it should actually be 9, whether Asha is supposed to be Sash (6) or Ishi as you say (10) it’s definitely not 3, and Van could possibly be Vev (4) making the only one that lines up.
Even if that last one is correct, it t would mean there is at best a 25% accuracy between the prefixes and the traditional number association as presented in the Ars Arcanum in the back of the books.
For me at least a 25% match name and title associations that already have numbers traditionally assigned to them just doesn’t make sense as an explanation by itself.
I’m not saying that the Herald names have nothing to do with the prefixes. They might. It’s just that if there is an association, it’s not one that lines up with the rest of Vorinism as it has been presented to us thus far.
This is of course mitigated somewhat by the fact that the religion has been changed by purges by both the Ardentia and at least one of the actual Heralds. It could have nothing to do with Vorinism at all since the Alethi do not use the prefixes, or it might be possible that there are differences in religious practice (but not the religion as a whole) between the noble houses of Alethkar and Vedenar.
This still leaves one other possibility as well: we don’t know for sure that the practice isn’t one that is limited not only to Vedenar, but to rural Vedenar or possibly even to the Davar house specifically. Based on Shallan’s flashbacks, they certainly seem isolated enough to have developed their own house traditions outside of the rest of feudal systems in place.
IIRC, the book The Good Earth, set in China, said it was a sign of the family’s upward mobility that the sons were given names rather than basically being “first son,” “second son,” etc. I believe I’ve read elsewhere that was the naming tradition in much of rural China until recent times. I’ve never heard one way or another about the naming traditions in Korea, where Brandon lived, but they were heavily influenced by Chinese culture. I understand it reflected the heavy emphasis on family and clan and that, in small villages, it wasn’t nearly as confusing as it would seem to us.
In Japanese it is normal to use older brother or older sister instead of the name (there are different words for older brother, younger brother, older sister and younger sister). Using family relations as forms of address isn’t that strange in some cultures. The question with Veden titles is how many there are and what you do if there are more children than the language allows. And does Shallan not have a prefix because she is the only daughter or because the system is only used for boys?
@25 wcarter. My point was that the titles for the sons are not birth order numbers, but honorifics based on Herald names. Herald names are used commonly in Vorin culture. Shallan is named for the Herald Shalashelin; and Kaladin for Kalak (the ‘adin’ suffix probably means ‘lord’, as in the Hebrew ‘adon’). It is not surprising then that the title ‘nan’, a palindromic shortening of ‘Nalan’ be given for the oldest son (the Shin designation of Nalan is ‘nin’), ‘tet’, a similar shortening of ‘Talenelat’ be that for the next son, and ‘asha’, a version of ‘Ishi”, be for the next son. Shallan, the only daughter, doesn’t have a title since she is not in the line of inheritance. and won’t take over the official family leadership should the father and brothers die. Shallan, however, is seen by her father as an avenue to achieve prominence in Veden high society if he can marry her off to a sufficiently high-placed Veden noble.
@28
Sorry I probably took that out of your intended context.
In any case, it does have to do with birth order and inheritance. Haleran as the oldest was “Nan” until Lin had him declared disinherited/”dead” which then moved all of his brothers up one place starting with Balat. The prefixes were obviously not randomly assigned.
What I’m not sure about is whether or not they are directly linked to the Heralds in a traditionally Vorin manner (I personally doubt it).
To say they are diminutive versions of the names, makes sense at a glance. But as I said before, there are already numbers directly tied to the Heralds and surges listed in the books, and they don’t coincide very well with the order these prefixes are assigned to the children.
They are apparently not assigned uniquely or at random (otherwise they would not have changed for his brothers when Halaran was disinherited). So there has to be more to it than than those prefixes simply being versions of Heraldic names.
So if they are diminutives, my question becomes: why are the presented in this particular order?
A further point to my last comment. The order of the titles given to sons primarily reflects the order of the listing of the male Heralds as reflected in the names for the decimal numbers. Thus, Jezrien at 1 represents the father; Nan (Nalan) at 2, represents the oldest son; Tet (Talenelat) at 9, is the next son; and Asha (Ishar) at 10 is the next son (there are 5 female Heralds after Nan). The only oddity is the skipping of Kalak (8). Perhaps that omission is due to the perceived youthfulness of Kalak as he is depicted. Parenthetically, Kaladin reflects his namesake’s attribute of resolute builder as well as in his long hair – as evidenced by his building of a totally dispirited collection of bridgemen into an effective, empathetic, and resolute team.
Y’all got me thinking. (Dangerous business, that.) I was looking at “Nan” as the number 2, being next in line to the lord of the house, but if you try to match up the titles to Heralds and look at their roles instead of their numbers… try this:
1st son = Nan (Nalan) = Judge = Representative of the house Lord and direct heir
2nd son = Tet (Talennelat) = Soldier
3rd son = Asha (Ishi) = Priest (likely Ardent)
Or possibly, Asha (Shalash) = Artist
Either way, this would be the one who studies and/or creates, and is associated with religion or culture. Or craftsman, given the purposes of the modern ardentia.
4th son = Van (Vedeledev?) = Healer (Or maybe, this is the catch-all for “whatever we need you to be.”)
I would suggest, though it’s a suggestion only, that this is a specifically Veden tradition, not a general Vorin one, and may be loosely descended from the traditions of the Horneaters, to whom the Veden are related. Note that the order of duties is much different, and much more fitting to a Vorin culture.
The Horneater tradition is that first & second sons make food, the third son is a craftsman, and the fourth son is the warrior. They have a location and a culture in which acquiring food is (or was) both difficult and necessary, so the two oldest were dedicated to that most vital function. Fighting is the least important role in their culture, and therefore relegated to the fourth son.
It makes sense that the Vedens, living in a more fertile place where food is not an all-consuming focus, and having the Vorin emphasis on “Soldiers to Retake the Tranquiline Halls!!!” would modify the traditional roles to place the house leadership and the soldier at the top, with no particular emphasis on food production or craftsmanship.
Whatcha think? I’m beginning to think it makes sense. However, I would also suggest that it’s a tradition that is kept primarily through the titles, and no one actually expects the sons to follow it. Certainly in the Davar family, there’s no indication that Balat was seriously training to be a fighter, or that Lord Davar had any intention of letting Wikim join the ardentia (even though he would have been eminently suitable, and their ardents had tried to encourage the notion).
@31: Now there is an explanation that would explain much.
Maybe we will hear confirmation from Peter or Brandon at some point.
@22: Haha. Yes, my husband likes to say “The children have way too much power in this house.”
@23: Violet Eyes… Do exist on Earth, just very rare. And are seen as a odd blue. The most famous person with them is Elizabeth Taylor.
Now the question would be are the violet eyes of Roshar like the picture of the young Elizabeth, which might have some photoshop work to enrich the color. Or more like the picture of older Elizabeth.
@@.-@ I seem to recall from Way of Kings that, in Vorin society, the heir is the same nahn/dahn as the parent and the rest of the children are one rank lower, but I can’t remember exactly where that was.
Great insights into the ordering/titles Wetlander. I was trying to reason it out and failing.
I do question whether or not everything was sunshine and lollipops in House Davar prior to the infamous night. The POV of Balat in the 2nd interlude in WoK seems to demonstrate a deeply rooted psychosis that seems to indicate a history of violence that would extend further back than 3 years. The mundane way in which he mutilates is… shocking.
My memory is failing me. Do we know much, if anything, about her mother beyond the fact that she wanted her daughter dead? Is this a superstitious woman who thought her daughter was a voidbringer? Or was she the abusive/violent one, possibly the result of a psychosis of her own that resulted in the odd behaviors of her sons?
There are hints that all was not sunshine-perfect in the Davar house even before Shallan started Investing Stormlight. Her brothers, including Balat, already seem to have been on their ways to various psychoses, and something attracted Pattern to Shallan in the first place.
But there are also hints that the problem wasn’t the mother, at least not primarily. They all seem to miss her and talk longingly of the days when she was still around. For example, when Hoid hypnotizes Shallan (in a flashback) into having a vision of the ideal life she wishes she had, Mother is there, and nothing is mentioned about this ideal Mother being different in personality from the real Mother.
So … what was the source of the problems? Mother and Father weren’t perfect, but neither seems to have been significantly abusive in the early years. It almost makes me suspect that some other family member (grandparent, aunt/uncle) might have been the main source of family strife in those early years, and died or otherwise left the picture about the same time Shallan started Investing … except if there were such a figure, surely they’d at least be mentioned in the text.
@34 and 35
Shallan has some dissociative issues as well. And of course there’s the other brother’s compulsive gambling problem…all in all they are a riot of issues and the father, Lin, seems like he might be manic depressive (though that could be a result of the death of his wife).
With this many mental issues, it’s clear something is wrong with the lot of them. I hesitate to steer my mental theories in this direction since we are talking about Sanderson and not George R Martin, but well…the Davar plantation is fairly rural. Could a few generations of noble inbreeding between them and the few close by houses have maybe given them a predilection towards insanity?
I note a number of would-be psychoanalyses being ventured for the Davar family despite the paucity of information relating to times prior to the killing of the mother. If anything, the family prior to that traumatic event gave the impression of normalcy. Shallan was close to her mother who was her tutor in several subjects and role model. She also appears to have admired her father’s commanding presence as well as her mother’s independence. Whatever friction there was between a controlling father and an independent minded mother may not have resonated with the children. After all, there is friction in many, if not most, marriages. Everything changed, however, when the mother became convinced that her daughter was a proto-Radiant who represented a danger to the world. Her attempt to kill Shallan resulted in her being impaled on Shallan’s Pattern-blade. This had a devastating effect on the young girl, and the father protected his daughter by implicitly accepting the blame for the killing. That inference had an equally devastating effect on her siblings. The damage was a general hatred of the brothers for their father and signs of dysfunction. Balat is fascinated by destructive acts such as tearing off limbs of creatures and setting fires. Wikim is depressed and contemplates suicide. Joshu develops a gambling addiction. Helaran can’t contain his anger at Lin Davar and leaves home to join the Skybreakers as an assassin. Lin Davar becomes increasingly enraged at his sons’ hatred and resorts increasingly to violence to enforce his rule over the family. Shallan’s original traumatic shock lessens with time as she consciously suppresses memory of the event, and she assumes the role of family healer. It’s quite a dysfunctional family dynamic that culminates in a violent scene where Lin kills his second wife and maims Balat. Shallan’s solution to the crisis (I won’t mention any detail in case someone here hasn’t read that far in WOR – it’s one of the most striking episodes that I have come across in literature) leaves her with a second trauma. However, she quickly recovers and seeks a solution to the family’s financial straits and broken fabrial by pursuing Jasnah in order to steal her fabrial. Instead, she becomes a disciple and takes up Jasnah’s quest of Urithiru. It appears that she will be reunited with her brothers in Urithiru if the Ghostbloods keep their word. They should accept her leadership as they did when living in the Davar estate. Whether they can be told the truth about Shallan and their mother may depend on whether or not they have suffered traumas during the Everstorm and its aftermath. It seems very likely, however, that Kaladin will soon reveal to Shallan that he was the one who killed her brother, Helaran, in combat. She should be able to accept that fact without resentment given her own history.
@37 STBLST: I wonder if Shallan will be able to figure out it was Kaladin before he has a chance to tell her? Obviously it’s hard to not, as a reader, just know about what really happened and think of it from that perspective, but by the end of the book several parties know enough that, if they reveal it to Shallan, she could connect the dots herself (Dalinar and the bridgemen, although no idea if she’ll interact with them that much in book 3 considering she didn’t do much with them – and we’ve already seen that she feels fairly safe from more mundane attacks with her Stormlight regeneration).
As to how bad the Davar family was before the incident…it’s hard to say. I’ve always been hesitant on what constitutes the “cracks” in a person’s soul that allows the Nahel bond to take root. Kaladin’s youth, especially before Roshone appeared, wasn’t necessarily “bad” – but even as a child Kaladin couldn’t really get himself to fit in, torn between what his father wanted, what his society wanted, and what he wanted…not to mention he still had his moods back then. I think that, if Shallan had clearer memories of her past, we’d see a family that, while somewhat dysfunctional, wouldn’t necessarily be as “bad” as we might think.
Although I have to admit, a part of me can’t trust a mother that seemed to so quickly turn on her child to the point of murder – but that’s personal bias speaking. Plus Odium might have had a hand in that as well.
@wetlander “Why is Shallan “our pride above all others?” Because her father has drawn his limits at her: He may abuse and hit anyone, but as long as he does not hurt Shallan, he as not crossed the moral event horizon.
@@@@@ Several. That’s the frustrating thing about this being Shallan’s flashback book. We know so much more, but some key questions remain unanswered. And really without enough information to even make a guess. Just speculate. What caused a child under 10 to be “broken” enough to attract a spren?
I hope that has she heals and bonds more strongly with Pattern that more memories will surface so we can know. Because as much as I love the WoB and WoP stuff, I really want this to be a thing addressed in book.
@@@@@39: While I like that idea, I think that being the real reason is not his on a conscious level. Maybe a sub-conscious level. He does not strike me as a self-reflexive guy.
@@@@@33: That would make since in the way of English nobility. First son of an Earl had more status than the second son, even if both were called a “Lord” prior to inheriting the Earldom. Vorin just has a more formal structure with dahn levels.
Perhaps too much is made of ‘brokenness’ being a necessary element of bonding to a spren. It may be a feature (or necessary feature) of full-bonding, but it need not be in play initially – if the child, Shallan, is considered. There is no indication that she didn’t have a normal childhood before she fully manifested her illumination surge abilities. Perhaps there was some sadness when she came to understand the friction between her parents. But that is not a trauma. Kaladin has traumatic incidents in his life starting with his inability as a boy to save a young child, and moving on to the death of Tien, his squad, his being made a slave, and his being forced into a suicidal position as a bridgeman for Sadeas. If anything, the periods of depression that he suffers are obstacles to his progressing to Radiancy rather than a necessary component. If ‘brokenness’ is, indeed a necessary feature of the Nahel bond, then it is there to keep the Radiant in line so that his or her powers don’t go to their head and lead to arrogance.
Perhaps in the case of children, there is no need for being broken for the spren to start a bond. In children, the brain is still in development and thus malleable. There might be no needs of “cracks” for the spren to work with since it could be “incorporated’ in the normal development.
Argh! I’m not very good to put this concept in words. I hope you will get what I mean.
Kaboom @42 – Hey there! ::waves enthusiastically:: Actually, you did a fine job of putting it into words, at least for me. I like that concept. A lot. It makes sense of how a child could, without major trauma, be open to a spren bond, as contrasted to the “breaking” that an adult requires to open up. I particularly like it for Shallan, because there’s not much indication that she had a terrible childhood up until her mother started freaking out about her Surgebinding… which was obviously the result of the bond, not the cause!
IMO, it also makes better sense for Lift, as well; at 13, while she hadn’t had an easy childhood, it doesn’t necessarily seem like she was – or even should have been – exactly broken by it.
I hope this turns out to be correct, because I really like it.
@42 I was thinking the same thing. Also, children have grand imaginations. Their minds might be more accepting of spren as cognitive playmates. Imagine Shallen playing in the garden, drawing, and making up fairy stories (spren stories? KR stories?) This is exactly the kind of thing Pattern would be drawn to. And I imagine Pattern would like to show her how to Illuminate her stories, as well. A smart girl like Shallen would advance in no time, simply by playing in the garden with her friend, Pattern.
Eh, while I’m open to the child-theory, I have to say that Lift’s Interlude, even as just one chapter, leaves me with the impression that she’s coming from a pretty dark past.
Not just being a poor urchin — there’s hints that either her mother or the loss of her mother were traumatic, and she definitely interrupts and changes the subject rather than discussing whatever makes Ral Elorim “the city of shadows.”
Not to mention WoB that she’ll eventually become a flashback character.
@45: Lift’s flashbacks is scheduled for the second arc. It may not touch her childhood, but the gap between both series…
I like the child theory as well, though I tend to lean with those thinking the Davar household has never been overly happy. Many things do not add up for me. For one, there is the fact every single family member reacted extremely badly to the mother’s death: each and every one of them seem to have developed a pathology. Not everyone will react the same way to the violent death of a family member, but out of 5 surviving members, it seems reasonable to think at least one of them would have surmounted the ordeal without too many scratches. However, even if we accept this, the fact remains Shallan’s mother was ready to murder her daughter because of her surgebinding… No doubt she was brainwashed by a sect, but still to go on and try to kill her child… No, the family could not have been picture perfect before. No sane happy parents think of murdering their children simply because of their behavior. Such a drastic action underlines something.
I am thus leaning for an in-between. I do not think the Davar family ever was as happy as Shallan depiction. I have always thought it was one of her lies. However, I am also starting to think whatever issues they had before may not have been enough to break Shallan… Her bond could have sprouted from the immaturity of her child’s brain.
The notion that spren bonding enters a KR candidate via a ‘crack’ in their personality appears to come from ad copy introducing WOR. Is there a confirmation that such wording is that of BWS rather than a TOR writer?
@47: I am pretty sure it is canon, though I am unable to find an appropriate WoB. Worst, now that I think of it, I cannot remember reading a WoB on the matter… I have read so often the notion of Radiants needing to be broken, I never personally thought to dispute it. After all, Syl does tell Kaladin all Radiants were once broken then reforged. I have also read people stating Radiants were all neuro-atypical, which was a strange one for me. This last one may have sprouted from the fact our two main Radiants are indeed neuro-atypical which was reinforced when Renarin became one. I however tend to believe an individual needs to be “tested” and the best way to “test” someone is to put him into a bad stretch and see if he can still be “protective”, “pious”, “loving”, “brave”, “creative” and etc. I thus tend to think the “brokenness” required is more an insurance for the sprens, but again this is not completely clear to me.
Perhaps someone has the appropriate WoB.
47. STBLST
I believe Brandon had to push to get that specific text in there, instead of having a generic blurb there, like editors normally want.
So, yes, it is canon.
Just a quick note: upthread it was mentioned that Tet (Talenelat) is the ninth in the count and represents #9. Might be worth considering that the Hebrew letter Tet is ninth and used to represent the number 9 ….
Brandon, I am sure,is aware of this.
I can’t resist the urge to explicate some Hebraism’s in the SA series, being prompted by Nitpicking’s comment. If the number nine, tanat, is sometimes shortened to ‘tet’ – as Nitpicking suggests, then it does reflect the Hebrew word for 9. More apparent is ‘shash’ for 6 (the Hebrew is ‘shesh’). ‘Ishi’, the Herald or the word for 10, can be seen as a variant of ‘eser’, the Hebrew for 10. On the other hand, the Herald, Shalash, is apparently unrelated to the Hebrew word for 3. Other Hebraism’s are the Hebrew ‘adon’ meaning lord in Adonalsium and Kaladin (I’m assuming that the name is derived from Kalak adon, or the lord, Kalak). The name Jasnah (the ‘J’ is pronounced as a ‘Y’), who is a historian, is from the Hebrew for old or ancient, ‘yashan’. Shallan’s last name, Davar, is from the Hebrew for statement or word (as in words of radiance). If true, this should not be surprising given Sanderson’s Mormon affiliation.
STBLST @51 – I like the Hebrew correlations (which, yes, are certainly deliberate) but I’m confused as to why Shalash and the number 3 should be related.
Shalash > Shash > 6.
Chanarach > Chach > 3
And I know that’s really nitpicking, but aside from curiosity, this is part of my attempt to flood the “recent comments” with things NOT having to do with the Hugo debacle.
Wetlandernw, it’s nice that you check on earlier postings. While you are correct that Shalash can be shortened to ‘shash’ in line with other such Sanderson usages, the word itself, however, is basically the Hebrew ‘shalosh’ which means 3. Hence my observation.
P.S. What’s the Hugo debacle?
Wet, forget about my last comment. I Googled ‘Hugo awards’ and learned about the politicization of the current or recent awards. It’s sad that political ideology and tactics are used as tools to attempt to control creative efforts and the options available to the reading public. It’s also another sign of the increasing polarization of discourse and its expansion from politics to other areas. Let me not add to it, however.